Should every nation be a separate country?

[Dr. Slicker]

I happened to read some very interesting posts in the "Random Lounge" and would like to pick up Gemma´s idea about creating a special thread.

Maybe it´s solely an European thing here, but I think, that the intended topic could rely not only to my continent.

The recent development in the European Union is somewhat contradictory for me: on one side the different countries pretend to grow together, on the other side national differences, animosities and egoisms are rising up, resulting in chewy negotiations about bits and bobs.

So a common European government could be a solution for this stagnating "European Nation" IMO, but that is for sure an illusion.

Moreover, some nations are taking efforts to seperate from their dominant or other-part-country like within Belgium and Spain (thank you for the hints, Geertrui and Gemma). And the separation is upswinging in the last decade - the Soviet and the Jugoslavian Union went to splinters.

But maybe the conservation of a language and a culture sometimes only can happen within a separate country.

Perhaps this is the catch-22-situation here: you can´t preserve different cultures and can´t enforce the merging of countries into a bigger and more efficient "nation" (like the European Union) altogether.

Or is this dilemma too far fetched? What do you think?

I created the poll with the write-in-option, so everyone is entitled to add a further poll-option, if my first two ones are not sufficient - I almost suppose so.
Btw.: I have no clear opinion right now.

[Gemma]

Well, I guess you know my answer, but what if two nations want to remain together?, as a Confederation for example. For me this is the perfect state when there are 2 or more nationalities in the same country, it means they can decide whenever they want if they want to be out or in this so called confederation.
Anyway, I am of the opinion these issues must be sorted out democratically. And it is a fact that self-determination is supported by the UN in its Charter. Article 1.

“To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.” “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

IMHO it should be accepted what the majority of people living in that place decides. These matters were solved with wars in the past and I am completely against it. I must admit we learnt the lesson, we lost all them since 1714. Last time during the Spanish Civil War, the president of Catalonia declared independence and Barcelona ended up becoming the guineas pig for Hitler's and Mussolini's fascists bombings before entering the WWII. And our president who was exiled in France given in by nazis to Spanish fascists and sentenced and executioned.
You are so right Dr. Slicker about the European Union not resulting in what we thought. In a way we had the idea that small nationalities would be voiced there but it isn't. And they are so incoherent with the matter, everthing is subjected to interests, as we can see when they support Kosovo's decision for example but go against North Ossetia's.
I have a deeply admiration for countries which are not afraid of giving the permission to its historical regions to vote and decide their future, UK, Denmark, Canada, Sweden, etc... I am not sure what would happen in France or Italy. But I know what's happening here, as our independence feeling grows the resentment against us in the rest of the state is growing too. There are big finantial problems now and our law in the Spanish Constitutional Tribunal because it was too independent although it was voted by the majority of inhabitants here. What the Spanish government says is absurd, as there is a Spanish consitution created after the Spanish dictator died (imagine the conditions of fear in which it was written), they say it is all the people in Spain who should vote whether they want Catalonia independent or not. It is as saying that all Canada should decide whether they want Quebec independent or not. We know which would be the answer of this question. It sounds like a joke to me.
Well, that's what happens when in a country fascism wins the war and the dictatorship is not beaten until he dies in his own bed. This is the sad Spanish history.

Regarding language I can say we are lucky. Catalan has been preserved, although it was forbidden during the Spanish dictatorship, from 1939 to 1975 and also in the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries under death penalty, it has survived, people went on using it and it is widely spoken and perfectly understood. It is very similar to Spanish and French. We learn both languages Spanish and Catalan. Catalan is official in Catalonia, altogether with Spanish. And we have 2 national channels in TV and some private, many radio stations, literature, music, theatre... According to what Helchamp tells me about Quebec, I could say we are in a quite similar situation. The only thing is there is the feeling in Spain that we speak our own language to annoy them. It is a very strange reaction.

In addition I must say I was really shocked when I heard "the Cheyenne nation" stated in DQMW. I had never listen to Native American tribes being named as nations. But it is so coherent in a way. They got their culture, language and territory. I was shocked in a positive way because DQMW by stating this was being really fair and bold. In the episode One Nation I understand they mean One Native American Nation as it was that episode in which Cloud Dancing sacrificed himself to gather the tribes together, but maybe I am mistaken and it means the whole US. I listened to Obama in an interview on CNN talking about doing something new regarding the issue. Not just restitution but being in contact with the chiefs and providing hew hope for them.

[Ella]

I understood the expression One Nation just like you, Gemma.

I must say this is incredibly interesting, especially what you tell us about the situation of Catalan and Spain and the historical background. I admit that I didn't know very much about that. At least about Catalan. So, thank you for explaining it.
I must also admit that I haven't made up my mind about this question, because I never really gave a lot of thoughts to it , so actually I can't state a substantiated opinion right now. But I'm eager to hear more from people who are affected because they live in countries with such situations. (We have nobody from Northern Italy here, or from South Tyrol, have we? That would be interesting too.)

Originally Posted by Gemma

Anyway, I am of the opinion these issues must be sorted out democratically.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Gemma

Well, I guess you know my answer, but what if two nations want to remain together?, as a Confederation for example. For me this is the perfect state when there are 2 or more nationalities in the same country, it means they can decide whenever they want if they want to be out or in this so called confederation.

I agree here too.

[Geertrui]

It's very interesting to read about the situation of Catalan and Spain . Thank you!

I can't give immediately an answer on the question that every nation should be a seperate country. I think the most important thing is that the people of a certain country must get a good policy so the government can do everything to serve the people. In Belgium this isn't quite the case. I mean, Flanders and Wallonia needs to be able to take his own measures in order to establish a wealthy region or whatever. There is a mass of payments going from Flanders to Wallonia but it doesn't help (Wallonia is the french speaking part of Belgium and is poorer compared to Flanders), just because they need other measurements. In short, the political system doesn't work imo.

There are so many differences between Flanders and Wallonia. We don't only speak a totally other language, but we have are own public opinion, media, tv and radio station. For example someone who's famous in the north doesn't mean that he or she is known in the south.

Originally Posted by Gemma

Anyway, I am of the opinion these issues must be sorted out democratically.

I agree 100 % here too. Such a seperation must be done in peace and democratically. There hasn't been a referendum here but polls say that the majority of the people is still in favour for Belgium. Allthough the percentage of the people living in Flanders who want an independent Flanders is increasing. We should respect their opinion for sure and forcing into a seperation is entirely wrong.

Originally Posted by Gemma

I guess the problem would be Brussels, something about where it is located...

That's a problem, indeed. Brussels is situated in Flanders and as the capital it has 3 official languages (besides Dutch and French, German as well). Brussels is a city of all the communities, so to speak. Moreover Brussels is an important Europen city.

It's nice that your sister is living in Antwerp. Does she like it? You're always very welcome too

[Dr. Slicker]

Originally Posted by Gemma

IMHO it should be accepted what the majority of people living in that place decides.

I absolutely agree. It´s an anachronism for me to place democracy in a region, but to forbid the people of this region to decide democratically about their status.

[HelChamp]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slicker

But maybe the conservation of a language and a culture sometimes only can happen within a separate country.

I will not enter far in the subject, because I could talk too much about. But that isn't easy to live in a country where the governement try more and more to assimilated the French people there. By chance here we have, for the moment, some people at the governement which try to defend our interest for not be assimilated, but its happen in some smaller province previously, and i'm effraid that woudl happen. I have nothign against the British Canadian culture, but please, it is so hard to live both culture together? We accept lot of new people there with their own culture, why should the French and Acadian from there should be assimilated?

We aren't more in the patriot period, we not ask more or want to push out other, but we request only to be able to live like we are. My mother can't go shopping everywhere alone now, some place are English only (in despite of the law about there is should have a service in both language). Sure she could leanr English, but it cost like 6 months of rent when your are born here and free to leanr English when you arrive from another country and not speak either French or English. So governement offert to immigrant to leanr English for free when they welcome them in a French territory, one of the subtil things about discouraging the people there. Same for all the money given to the British and Californian compagny to come here in the province, and where you need to be fully English for work and not need to speak a word of French (and this point, that is why I'm refused in major of the place I applied, because I'm not a perfect bilingual).

That is another situation, far of the Catalan, but in a way, I don't know what it would be when my kids will have 20 years.

And I agree with Geertrui about the culture. Here too, we not have the same opinion or same appreciation. For major of English province, only translation of American serie is enought for fill the schedule in a way. Not that we not appreciate good tv-serie here, but the homemade tv-show aren't the same and lot of transalted evening show aren't working there. but we are a minority in the country, and since the English side not need so much investment for the culture and media, it cut on all the speding and we have lest ans less possiblity to see our famous and own style creation. We love be able to see something which look to us, to our life or history.

[Geertrui]

Thank you for your contribution, HelChamp! It's very interesting to read about these issues which occur worldwide. I certainly come back to this thread when I've more time .

[Gemma]

It is so interesting reading from everyone of you. Nations without state are practically invisble. I must confess sometimes I feel like Native Americans in the western frontier.

Originally Posted by HelChamp

and we have lest ans less possiblity to see our famous and own style creation. We love be able to see something which look to us, to our life or history.

whch is a pity when you think of Roy Dupuis (the hot leading actor in La femme Nikita)

[Jen]

This is a very interesting topic, and the dilemma of course is quite complicated.

I guess we have a little different situation in Finland. Well, we do have some indigenous people called the Sami people in the north whose situation probably is similar to many other minor nations. There are some laws which have been created to protect their rights, but I'm not sure how efficiently they are practised in reality. Maybe Mervi knows something more about the situation?

But then we have a minority of Finns who speak Swedish as their mother tongue (about 6% of the whole population). The origins of this come from the time when Finland still used to belong to Sweden and Finnish was varely spoken anywhere. Anyway, most of these people live around Helsinki or the coastal areas. So because of this minority there is a law for bilingual services in Finland as well and anyone wishing to work at a state office has to be able to speak both languages. Also, Swedish is taught at schools as a compulsory language from year 7 onwards (so when the pupils are 13).

There has been lots of heated discussions about why everyone in Finland is made to learn Swedish only because of this minority. Personally, I think it would be so beneficial to be bilingual, but unfortunately I learnt Swedish only those 5 and a half years at school and live in a totally Finnish-speaking area, so the occasions to use Swedish are extremely rare and my skills are very basic. Finnish Swedish is a bit different from the Swedish Swedish (especially pronunciation and intonation), and in fact I can understand it better than "real" Swedish, which is kind of weird.

Anyway, I suppose it's not the same as having a very united group of people in the same area who share the minority language and culture. This minority is referred to as Finnish Swedish, but naturally they feel themselves to be just as Finnish as any Finnish speaking person, so there is not the same sense of estrangement than in the other cases mentioned here. It's just a very interesting situation, but I guess so far it's been working alright. Although there are many people in Finland who can't speak Swedish at all, so I'm not sure how well the equal rights for services in your own mother tongue can function when not everyone in the public service area knows the other official language. Probably if I spoke Swedish as my mother tongue, I would complain about this fact a lot.

[Lizzie]

I added "Not necessarily - it's complicated" as a poll option because I see it as something that has no black and white, and every case is different. Thank you everybody for sharing insight into the situations of your own nations/countries; it's very interesting to learn about.

The country I live in is pretty complicated too. The United Kingdom is made up of four nations, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, each with cultural heritage and an identity.
There are people in Scotland and Wales who want independence, and people who don't. Because England is the largest nation with the UK capital, the idea isn't so much of independence, but I'd imagine there are a few people who would rather England was separate, I don't know.
And with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (a different country in its own right) there have been many issues, relatively recently. Thankfully now it is an awful lot more peaceful and people largely talk rather than fight, but there is still controversy.

I like the idea of people being united; I hope that it is possible for different cultures, nations, to live together peacefully and cooperate.
I personally identify myself as British - I was born in England to English (and also British) parents, but spent some years growing up in Scotland, so my background and experiences are of two British nations. My home was culturally and linguistically English, but I could also speak the dialect of the Scottish region I lived in and participated in Scottish school/community, which is culturally a bit different from where I live now.
Some people in the UK also consider themselves British; others English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or Irish (that depends again). And within England, some people in Cornwall have a Cornish cultural identity too.
(By the way, with sporting events, sometimes there is a whole UK team, but in football (soccer) the teams are separate. This is really complicated too; people can't agree on whether this should remain or not.)
At the same time, some people (including me) also feel part of the European Union, and of the World. To me, being human, of the World, comes first.

Where should we draw the lines of classification? What constitutes a culture, nation, country, etc.? Human beings have a whole spectrum of different opinions - finding compromises to make definitions is difficult.

Whatever happens with any nations/countries, some people will be happy and some will want the opposite. I guess the huge difficulty comes in deciding which decision would be the best overall; in democracy, which decision is the most popular. But even then, people in minorities lose out. Maybe no one decision is ever best. But people have to do something. Catch-22, like Dr. Slicker said.

[Jen]

I've been reading this thread again, it's all very interesting. I'm actually taking a regional studies course at the moment which is dealing with this subject. So far we've been discussing the formation of a particular area and in what instances it can be called a separate nation, identity formation and things like that. At one lecture we watched a Belgian film called "Le mur" about the situation in Flanders (maybe you've seen it, Geertrui?). It was sort of utopistic, though: they built a wall separating the area from Belgium overnight, and the film showed how the citizens had to deal with this change. I guess the point was that borders, however imaginary they may be, can be very powerful in people's minds.

Lizzie, your post in particular was very interesting to me, because I'm going to write my paper on Scotland. So far I've been trying to think about the right way to describe Scotland because I guess it's sort of a country and yet it doesn't have all the autonomical characterisations of an independent country (and well, it's not independent either). I'm also wondering about the dual identity many books I've been reading claim the Scots to have: that they mostly describe themselves both as Scottish and British, even if the Scottish identity is the strongest one. Maybe similar examples can be found among minority groups in many other countries as well. An interesting example of this switching identity seems to be the sports: when I was at the figure skating gala, Kerr and Kerr were representing Britain, but yet it seemed like they wanted to highlight their own cultural heritage by performing a programme in kilts (well not real ones of course) and skating to Auld Lang Syne. Though one of the problems with the Scottish nationhood/identity seems to be that in other countries, and why not even in the UK, there's this myth about all the Scots wearing kilts, playing the bagpipe...all that touristic stuff you automatically associate with the whole country even though it's just a small part of the people who actually come from that tradition. I don't know from which part of Scotland Kerr and Kerr come from, but it's fascinating to think about this myth of the Scottish culture anyway.

[Geertrui]

Thank you for your contribution, everyone

Originally Posted by Jen

At one lecture we watched a Belgian film called "Le mur" about the situation in Flanders (maybe you've seen it, Geertrui?). It was sort of utopistic, though: they built a wall separating the area from Belgium overnight, and the film showed how the citizens had to deal with this change. I guess the point was that borders, however imaginary they may be, can be very powerful in people's minds.

I think I know which film you mean. It was a production of the RTBF, the radio and television of the French region and some politicians. A lot of people (mostly people living in Wallonia) were shocked after hearing the invented extra news: Flanders has finitely announced their independence. But what they have shown will never happen eg a certain tram can't run anymore because he wil be in Flemish region. It was ridiculous in my opinion.

So you have seen it in Finland? Wow it must be known all over the world


Your post made a lot of sense, Lizzie! I don't favour a snipped Europe or world. Then we may come in a situation of extreme nationalism. It's not a decision you can make in a hurry.

[Lizzie]

Sounds interesting Jen. (Btw if it would help at all, I'd be happy to discuss it or answer questions from a British perspective some time). I started writing a post but it got really long and I don't have the time at the moment .

I see what you mean about the tram lines for example, Geertrui!

[Jen]

Lizzie, we can have a little discussion about it if you'd be willing to help me.

Ah I'm sorry, I didn't mean that the things that happened in the film seemed anything realistic to me. We watched it during a lecture where we were discussing about borders (who gets to decide where they go, how does it affect people in that area...), so I guess it was sort of like an absurd metaphor for getting the discussion started about situations where there are distinctive groups living in the same area and what might the consequences of some of kind of separation or drawing new borders be to the actual people living in a certain area. It's definitely a very interesting question and in some ways maybe quite impossible to answer for sure. (By the way, I think the lecturer new the film because he does research especially on European regional studies.)

[Gemma]

We saw the film here too. Our national channel always reports everything from other nations without state. It was considered kind of disrespectful towards Flanders. So we always know what's happening especially in Scotland, Flanders, Quebec. It's nice because normally these news are ignored or silenced by the states.

I'll try to explain why I am an activist to get the independence of my country. I guess no country wants to be independent from another state if it is well treated. People don't want problems nowdays. But when you are ignored, not understood and even boycotted, you don't like living under another nation. Because in fact, in Spain what we are is second class citizens in our own country Catalonia. i could tell you so many examples.
Catalonia was the richest area of the state but our taxes have increased so much to pay to Spain that now we are finantially in crisis. We are supposed to pay to support the poor areas in Spain and when all the taxes are collected, we end up being at the bottom of the list because of this financial plundering. It's quite an absurdity.

Apart from that Catalonia has never been understood in the rest of Spain. They don't understand why we keep our language when we could all speak Spanish (I must say we all speak perfect Spanish here too). Nowadays Catalan is spoken by 11 million people but thanks to Spain we cannot speak in the European Parliament. As you Lizzie I had big hopes in the European Union but it has turned out that there we don't have a voice, it's Spain who always speaks for us as if we couldn't get our emancipation and we are ignored and invisible. In that sense UK is really a democratic country, we all know about Scotland, Ireland, even about Cornwall, but did you know about us? A country that has a widely spoken language (the biggest community in countries without state in Europe), we have a Parliament that dates from the XI century, kings since the Xth century, history, literature, famous painters, architects, etc... But we don't exist. It's amazing to learn that there are more universities where Catalan literature and language is studied in the US or in Germany than in the rest of Spain. This is a very subtle way of despise. Catalan literature is usually studied in Medieval cathedras because it was the first language in the XIII century to have prose not written in Latin by Ramon Llull. Apart from an excellent literature over the centuries.

More, you know what happened to some youngsters who were in favour of independence and showed some signs saying "Freedom for Catalonia" and "Catalonia is not Spain" while the Olympic Games in 1992? They ended up in prison and tortured. A journalist who denounced it was threatened and lost his job. I must say all these actions are completely peaceful.

What annoyed me more was 2 years ago with Catalan National Selection of Hockey. Catalonia is very good at rollerskating hockey and the international sports federations are private companies, so Catalonia won the Sub World Cup and had the chance to participate in the World Cup. Spanish Diplomacy moved its people and ended with the Catalan Selection. We cannot play any more internationally. And that after winning the prize. Can you believe that?, that was so heartless. And they have been doing the same with other Catalan Selections while promoting the Spanish Selections and compelling Catalan sportsmen to play there. Last year Catalan National Selection of Football which is since then only allowed to play 2 matches per year was forbidden to play a match already planned against the US because Spanish government decided at the very last moment, that 2 matches were enough for our nation.

Another fact, three years ago we voted a law reform to our national law, kind of constitution. There was a campaign from Spain against it because we voted a finantial reform and some improvements, since we have the biggest immigration here some things must be changed to finance everything. Here there is the universal healthcare coverage. I am very happy with this and the fact that we are helping people who need it. So this will for improvements wasn't understood from Spain and they boycotted Catalan products and started a campaign that still lasts, some Spanish parties brought our law to the Spanish Constitutional Tribunal, now this law is blocked and at the same time many issues in our country like finance. Can you believe this? We are supposed to be from the same country. They don't like us but at the same time they don't want to give us our freedom. I always feel like living in a colony but very close to the metropolis.

We should face facts, most of nations that are inside other nations is because they lost some war in the past. That remains in the social unconscious. We are part of Spain since 1714 and in fact, that's not so long ago. There is the idea that they will try to make a referendum pro independence in 2014 but I can assure Spain is going to send its tanks if this happens. The Spanish constitution guarantees it at the beginning of itself. We are not alone though, Pays Basque and Galicia are other nations in Spain. But I would say they don't annoy them so much as us, even the Basques are better considered than Catalans although as you may know there is a terrorist problem there.

It's quite hard to have to clarify where are you from, that I don't feel Spanish, that that is not my culture, language or history. It's like if you were Italian but they told you you are Greek. Sometimes I may sound repetitive but I think I must be honest and speak my feelings out about my origins. And after a dictatorship that lasted from 1939 to 1975 we have to make lots of pedagogy, it's decades of prohibition to speak a language and to express our culture. The worst thing is that fascism won the war here and it was very hard to live here as Catalans (although it was the majority of the population). The dictator died of an illness. And then democracy was pacted with some of the people who were supporting the dictatorship, these people are still there and that's why some rights are still unavailable.

Finally (sorry for this never ending post) I wanted to show you a touching clip of a very famous Catalan musician Pau Casals who spoke in the UN during the dictatorship under fascism, to understand what I was saying about our peaceful ways and also how proud we are of being a nation. That's why sometimes I feel so much like Cloud Dancing and how he uses this word. In Spain many people will never accept the Catalan nation and that's so sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVX6fKxojk