Should every nation be a separate country?

[Ella]

The clip as well as your post is very moving, Gemma.

[Lizzie]

Originally Posted by Gemma

In that sense UK is really a democratic country, we all know about Scotland, Ireland, even about Cornwall, but did you know about us?

To be honest, not very much. I had heard that Catalonia was culturally distinct from other parts of Spain, and had also heard of there being tension between players on the same Spanish football/soccer team, especially between those of Catalan and Spanish language and culture.
But I do feel it's important to know what's happening in other places in the world. Your post was eye-opening.

Originally Posted by Ella

The clip as well as your post is very moving, Gemma.

It is, thank you for sharing it.
I can understand (as much as I can, anyway) where you're coming from. Cultural identity is very personal and important, something to be respected and valued. For that not to be recognised must be very hard.

[Gemma]

Thanks Ella and Lizzie for your understanding.
Lizzie, you know quite much then. You are so right, football is one of the only ways we can be represented outside, by Barcelona Football Club. Johan Cruyff, the Dutch player used to say Barcelona was the Catalan Army. You can see the difference between Spain in Catalonia everytime there is Madrid - Barcelona match.

Did anyone listen what Hillary Clinton answered when asked about European Nationalities? She is visiting the EU and was questioned by some politicians in favour of Scotland, Wales, Catalonia and Pays Basque independence. She answered that it was Europe's business to deal with it, that the US couldn't take part on that.

Oh, today I will be able to make my point on what I was saying about being invisible. There is an expedition to Brussels with people from Catalonia, Wales, Scotland and Pays Basque to be seen internationally. 10.000 people will be there asking for the possibility to vote about our future. Probably you won't see it on the news. Well, hopefully Geertrui . It has been said that many people from Flanders will attend this event.
This initiative came out from Facebook. You can read about it here.



http://catalanstate.blogspot.com/



That's in fact what Dorothy tells Cloud Dancing, the Cheyenne are seen through the white men's eyes and depicted as evil. Maybe it's better not being voiced at all by international media, because when they mention us, anytime, it is always to bash us. I could show you some articles from the Times that prove my point. But these journalists who write these articles don't live in Barcelona of course, they are always writing from Madrid, unaware of our daily life and they call themselves journalists!

[Geertrui]

I hadn't replied yet on your previous post, Gemma, but I totally agree with Lizzie and Ella!

The expedition wasn't that invisible, at least here in Flanders. It was on the news on the radio and on tv. Here is the link to the news page where you also can watch the report (by clicking on the image) : http://www.deredactie.be/cm/de.redac...ging_Catalanen It's Dutch though. They refer to the tax-issue you explained in your previous post. Let's hope now that Europe has heard the message

[Gemma]

Oh, thanks Geertrui! Great!
All went out quite well. I love these demonstrations, they are always with music, dances and lots of fun. I was at the one that was made at the same time in the centre of my city.
My brother-in-law translated it for me. He is from Flanders too.

Oh, there is something I wanted to ask you Geertrui, I think I can use this thread because it is more or less related.
After seeing Doc's new video Oh Julissi (I love this song, I am listening to it all day). I was thinking, was it made on purpose the fact of inventing a new language for the song to avoid problems in having to choose betweend Dutch or French?
A language conflict in Eurovision happened in Spain when one singer decided that he wanted to sing the song in Catalan to represent Spain. It was called La La La, and it had been written by him. He was forbidden to sing it and eventually a woman substituted him. And of course, the song won the contest. You can listen to the original forbidden song here:

In Catalan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se24_...ext=1&index=64

And the one that participated in the contest in Spanish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsOMsmFmioc

Just with this gesture I can make my point about what I was saying. A Catalan song cannot represent Spain according to Spanish, but at the same time we are supposed to be part of Spain. It's a very weird thought. Inclusive but exclusive at the same time.

Mysteriously Andorra, the country that also has Catalan as an official language and that has its representation in the UN, never passes the semifinal. Can you imagine how people in Catalonia would react to seeing a Catalan song in Eurovision? That would be very emotive for all of us, but it never happens and I don't think that's just bad luck.

[Geertrui]

Originally Posted by Gemma

I was thinking, was it made on purpose the fact of inventing a new language for the song to avoid problems in having to choose betweend Dutch or French?

No, I don't think so. A few years ago, Belgium ended on the second place with a song in an invented language. I suppose they thought they could do the same.

But I guess the organisation in Belgium is different than in Spain. I mean, one year Flanders chose a song, the other year Wallonia. In Flanders the people can vote the song and artist who will be representing the country. The amount of songs in Dutch is very limited in the selections. The main language is English, a few in Dutch but none in French in fact.

As far as I know, we haven't had this kind of language incidents, but I can be mistaken.

[Gemma]

Thanks to internet and globalization censhorship is no longer so powerful.
During the match between Bilbao (Pays Basque) and Barcelona Football Club the Spanish king (who was present there) and the Spanish anthem was booed. You can watch it here, the stadium was full of people who don't want to belong to Spain.
It was censored on the Spanish channel but it has been heard everywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVHAb10ApiQ

This flags with a star are pro independent flags and they are usually displayed in football matches now. As i told you Barcelona Football Club is making a great job for our cause as both the coach and the president of the club are activists.

How do Flemish people feel about the King of Belgium? The Spanish king is not particularly liked here, specially since it was his dinasty in 1714 the same dinasty that bombed and against whom we lost war and independence then. It's the Borbonic dinasty.

[Lizzie]

Originally Posted by Gemma

Thanks to internet and globalization censhorship is no longer so powerful.

That is good thing in my opinion (Tibet and Burma come to mind too). Openness and the world being able to see what is happening. And protest without violence. People have a right to their opinions and should not be censored.

Issues like this are so complex and difficult.

[Geertrui]

Originally Posted by Gemma

How do Flemish people feel about the King of Belgium? The Spanish king is not particularly liked here, specially since it was his dinasty in 1714 the same dinasty that bombed and against whom we lost war and independence then. It's the Borbonic dinasty.

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks for mentioning this!
I'm sorry I haven't replied on your question about our King any sooner. Well, he is popular because of his charisma. People like him as the King. But if we take the whole royal family into account, the popularity of them is much less. Mainly because of the awkwardnesses especially of Philip and Laurent (his sons). Perhaps you've heard about some of his stupid quotes and proceedings.

There is a governmental agreement in Flanders, after the elections held in the regions in June. It says that Flanders will establish a Flemish child benifit and hospitalization assurance. Flanders will maximize his authorities and that's not the way Wallonia likes. But we don't break the law .
Concerning the elections itself, the party which stands for an independent Flanders got 13% of the votes (which is high and unexpected) in Flanders and are sitting now in the Flemish parliament.

[Gemma]

Ok, after thinking a lot about it I think the option:
Not necessarily - it's complicated
it's a bit unfair because it's also complicated living in a state that repeatedly offends your nation but doesn't let you go as part of its property. Last news here is this extended idea called "catalanophobia" that is spreading in Spain. It's a mix of boycotting the products plus abusing our nation. It is very useful to political parties, criticising Catalonia sells in Spain. It has always been a mix of envy and disdain. Just look at this survey a famous Spanish paper had, they asked if their readers considered themselves catalanophobic, the "yes" option won.
Take a look:

this newspaper is called El Mundo



Can you believe this could happen in your country. For example in the UK, people asking "are you scottishphobic" or in Germany, are you "Bavarianphobic" or even in the US, are you "Californiaphobic"? I guess people wouldn't dare to say that or to publish it on a paper.

Just an instance. When there is a football match Madrid vs Barça or anytime they refer to the Catalan team, they call us "Polish". It's ok for me. I don't take it as an insult, as I love Polish people, but they think they are using it as a bad word because they say when we speak we sound like Polish. Well, I would say we sound more like Italian mixed with French. Because of this fact a very comical political programme made in Catalonia is called Polonia to pay a sarcastic homage to this abuse.
A clip of the programme in which you can watch Zapatero trying to keep Catalan government silent acting as Mary Poppins, Zetapoppins, he is always promising things he doesn't fulfill. The actors are cleverer than the politicians they are interpreting. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AqxrN8rJoM

Concerning the elections itself, the party which stands for an independent Flanders got 13% of the votes (which is high and unexpected) in Flanders and are sitting now in the Flemish parliament.

It's great Gertrui! It happens the same here, well that party won the 25% of the votes, the one who is openly pro-independence and it's sitting in the Parliament too but instead of making a coallition with the other nearly-pro-independence party (that's supposed to be its rival in independency, I don't know if I make myself clear) and who won the election, they allied with a pro-Spanish party. I know it's very confusing. They are supposed to be left-wing and that's why allied but nobody is lefty here, they are all too posh and rich, I mean these politicians. That's why many people is against this party, or the people who run this party, that they are too friends with the pro-Spanish socialists and now thanks to them we've got the most stupid president in the history of our nation. If they were governing with the other big pro-independence party, we would have 65% of the Parliament with pro-independence people and could ask for a voting. They are going to lose lots of votes because of what they did. But as Sully said "politics is a dirty business".

[Lizzie]

Originally Posted by Gemma

Ok, after thinking a lot about it I think the option:
Not necessarily - it's complicated
it's a bit unfair because it's also complicated living in a state that repeatedly offends your nation but doesn't let you go as part of its property.

Do you mean you think the option is unfair? Certainly though, living in that sort of situation must be.

Originally Posted by Gemma

Can you believe this could happen in your country. For example in the UK, people asking "are you scottishphobic" or in Germany, are you "Bavarianphobic" or even in the US, are you "Californiaphobic"? I guess people wouldn't dare to say that or to publish it on a paper.

If that happened here there would be a public row!

Originally Posted by Gemma

Just an instance. When there is a football match Madrid vs Barça or anytime they refer to the Catalan team, they call us "Polish". It's ok for me. I don't take it as an insult, as I love Polish people, but they think they are using it as a bad word because they say when we speak we sound like Polish.

I think that's a great attitude to have - then people who are trying to be insulting can't achieve what they aim to.

Originally Posted by Gemma

But as Sully said "politics is a dirty business".

Unfortunately that can be true.

[Gemma]

Something is happening here, and in pure DQ style, at last!
http://www.euronews.net/2009/09/14/c...-independence/
This is for you Geertrui, we are not alone
http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/990/Bui...lijkheid.dhtml
For my German friends:
http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Katalani...cle502479.html
Dutch:
http://www.nos.nl/nos/artikelen/2009...5DC18C816.html
American
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/...catalonia.html
and French:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...7uRwGkafe2FWRg
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article...9529_3214.html
And English
http://news.stv.tv/world/122712-cata...ce-from-spain/

And there are many more here
http://www.vilaweb.cat/www/noticia?p_idcmp=3630773

Anyway, it is kind of surrealistic, you cannot promote a referendum but we can promote surveys from private corporations all over the country, from village to village. And this has started and nothing is going to stop us now. Kind of cute. More than 60 villages are going to take part in it for the moment and voices started to claim for one in Barcelona too. It sounds like a DQ solution to the problem to me, peaceful and resourceful. Like when Sully gave that part of his land to the women to be able to vote.
A village organised a votation to ask whether Catalonia should be independent in Europe or not and of course we have had all the Spanish state against, even a fascist group that is still legal in Spain called Falange and was part of Franco dictatorship (it could be compared to Gestapo to give you an idea, in fact the only difference between these two is that Falange is still a legal organization, can you believe that in European Community?) came to this little democratic village to end with this votation promoted by a private organization. So in a way it was like a survey. The Yes option won in that town more than the 90% in favour. Pro-independence Catalans as I said are always in favour of a scrictly democratic and peaceful independence, something that is not possible according to the Spanish constitution against threat of occupying the country or figthing us using the Spanish army. Remember in Spain the fascists ruled from 1939 to 1975 and they didn't lose the war, the dictator just died, but we resisted. Well, it says quite a lot about Catalan ressistance. My aunt, for example, has lived more years under Franco fascist dictatorship and not being able to speak Catalan and display all our culture than in a free democratic world. Can you imagine something like that? Not to say about my exiled grandfather or my great uncle who was in Matthausen because he fought against Franco and then in France against nazis.
I guess when Europe and the world learn that our Catalan President was executed by the Spanish dictatorship, many people would support at least a restitution something that Spanish government has always denied to Catalonia. Can you imagine a dictator killing a president from an occupied country. I couldn't mention another case like that not even in World War II. Maybe I missed some case.