Abigail

[Dr. Slicker]

Woooowwww, great points so far from everyone´s side!!!

And sorry for not quoting this time, I just read all the posts severely and thoroughly and just have the time to post my own conclusions.

Sorry for being late and I hope, this is not the end of the discussion here.
I second Ella, that we never arrange a thread-start together. That would be weird in my viewpoint and my wife and I are disagreeing enough once in a while and so every clumsy try to give a concert would fail at once. Nevertheless, in this case I agree with Ella´s statements wholeheartedly.

I didn´t want to provoke measurements and hoped for an ambivalent discussion. A discussion anyway. And I love these kind of discussions.

I think, it´s very challenging to find proofs within DQMW for one or another point of view in this case. We can find circumstantial evidences, but we don´t stay within the heads and the hearts of the concerned people.

Abigail for me is a kind of symbol for the following question: is the love of Sully and Michaela sacrosanct like the love of Abelard and Eloise, the love of Romeo and Julia?

If yes, Abigail is nothing else as a foreign body in this story, a secondary irksome phenomenon. She lived, she was present, but we are only able to bear her presence by minimizing her personality and her impact. That´s my personal opinion, eggwalking excluded in this forum, needless to say.

If no, Abigail has her justified place at equal eye-level. And I will try to explain this viewpoint directly and indirectly.
Love for me is a binary thing. On or off. Not superficial or deep. It´s present in full depth or it´s absent. Love is not to like somebody at different degrees - you can like someone more and someone less. But you can´t love someone more or less as you can´t live more or less or can´t be dead more or less. That´s my opinion again, no claim for generalisation.

In this sense Sully obviously loved Abigail as he loved Michaela.
For sure Sully was a different person before he met Michaela. And Michaela was a different person when she met David. She had to face the death of her beloved father, feeling alone mentally and within the profession. And there were awesome points in this threads about Sully´s development after the loss of woman and child.

It makes no sense for me to weaken Sully´s degree of personal development, when he fell in love with Abigail, for the sake of weakening Abigails own personality and impact on him. The most important personal development is finalized in youth, although the further development is a life-long thing.

For sure Sully is traumatized by the loss of his beloved woman and loss of the child he never had a chance to see growing up. But the line of viewpoints gets somewhat illogical for me, if we concede a big trauma with the following new birth in the middle of the Cheyenne and at the same time play down the cause of this trauma, if we play down the underlying love. Only a true love - false loves are not existing - can cause a trauma, if this love ends horrifying and unexpected. And a new birth inherits and old soul.

We don´t know much or better just very fragmentary things about Abigail. But we know, that Sully suffers from a sudden outburst of emotions, when he sees the Cooper-kids handling with Abigail´s bequests.
So this would be one of my personal indications of his "true" or "deep" love for Abigail.

I personally see Michaela´s and Sully´s love as very likeable and one of the main ingredients of the show for sure. But I don´t admire this love. It was a love, which took the long way around Boston, Dr. Burke (the annoying "Mr. Sully"-salutation included) and Catherine. And I´m convinced, that Sully´s and Abigail´s love can stand the comparison. But maybe we shouldn´t compare apples to apples.

[Amber]

Doc Slicker, I don't know what to say but ...YES. What a beautiful way to describe this, IMO. Gives me a lot to think about...

[Gemma]

I think we are forgetting something very important: Michaela and Sully's chemistry. Nothing compares to that. I do think they are like Romeo and Juliet, Antony and Cleopatra, Abelard and Heloise... etc. It is a TV series so we must base our conclusions on what we see and I cannot imagine something equal to their attraction and the sparks there appear every time they are on screen. It is a mixture of physical, spiritual and intellectual attraction I can't imagine when I think of Abagail and Sully.

Ok, and now I'm going to be a bit cruel. When I see Sully in front of Abagail's grave, above all in Where the Heart Is, I think he is using her. He is using his memory of her to protect himself from his love for Michaela. He is afraid of it because in a way he doesn't know how to handle with it. It is going to be so different from the other relationship he lived and he knows it.
Sully was affected when he lost Hannah and Abagail but I think what affected him the most was losing a family again like it happened with his father and his mum, or as he said, "I always lose my families", talking about the cheyenne. I think within the years he is more affected by Hannah's death than Abagail's. As we see in The Heart Within or in When a child is born and with him preferring a girl over a boy.

[Kruemi]

Gemma, thank you for cheering me up a bit. Why I need it? Because this discussion makes me incredibly sad. I always feared the moment when I would wake up and the show would just be another show I liked. Well, at the moment it has lost its magic for me. The relationship between Michaela and Sully was always something special for me. Despite their ups and downs their love was unique (after all, like Gemma pointed out, we could see the chemistry of the couple on the screen).
But analyzing every detail destroyed the picture for me. It's not that I don't love discussions, I guess I proved that here at the Café. And it's not about my wanting to be the only one with the right opinion. Actually, I can't really explain it... I guess I'm like the child that just learned that Santa doesn't exist.
Well, you can tell me it is my own fault when I don't wanna accept certain arguments... Have you ever read a book and loved it, but then you tell your friend about it, and this friends tells you you are a fool, not having seen this detail, or that one which proves your impression being hopelessly romantic? Well, I think when it comes to a book or a painting, movie or a TV show, I am allowed to see what I want to see. If I wanna be crashed, I just have to look at real life.
Sorry that I rambled so much, but I needed to get this off my chest. Maybe I'm a bit depressed at the moment anyway so I don't wanna add even more to it.
However, as I said above: for me the magic is lost; at least right now. That is why I will stay away from discussions for a while.

[Lynn]

I feel Sully loved his first wife or they would never have married against her Father's objection. They were a lot younger than M & S and I believe young love tends not to be as deep as love that comes later after both people have a lot of baggage from their life. Sully even said to Michaela that he loved her differently than his first wife when he helped her plant her garden IMO

[Quinnspirit]

Kruemi, sometimes I can't believe we're not related to each other...My sister can prove it, this morning I feel exactly the same as you do now. The story IS about Sully and Michaela. There is no question about it!...(I hope...*duck*)....Both have experience great loss in their still young life and many people would have just been completly lost. But both, Michaela and Sully couldn't fight their love,their connection, for each other. For me that is the best example of all, that THIS love must have been something special beyond words. Both of them tried to fight it at the beginning but nonetheless, they fell for each other after all, because they couldn't resist. Even if they didn't want it to let it happen, the connection was just too strong.

Don't get me wrong. Yes, I believe that Sully loved Abigail. I think everyone agrees about that and I absolutely won't deny that. I just believe it must have been something special so that both Michaela, and Sully could let go of the past and give their love a chance to grow. A love that would be stronger nobody had expected.

IMO, IF Abigail had been such a special love for Sully, we would have seen more of her in the show. Yes, I know people will say now...but it was a show about Dr. Michaela Quinn and not Sully. Yes, you are right. But if we talk about Michaela, we need to talk about Sully as well. That is the show about. Courage, great loss, hope, friendship, the special chemistry between Mike and Sully. So, Abigail for me was a special part in Sully's life BUT I can't help it to say it again. She was not as special as Michaela was to him!

That is my Opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Dr. Slicker]

Tina, although I can´t share your opinion above in sum, you never can offend someone just by stating your viewpoints! Offenses only can occur as a consequence of personal attacks, not as the consequence of opinion-freedom. I had an enlarged experience with eggwalking and "offending" just by stating personal viewpoints in another DQ-forum and one of the intentions to found this one was to place another spirit here.
I for myself appreciate every different opinion here highly, even if there is no agreement or synthesis possible, stubborn as I am. I´m always excited to learn more regardless of being able to assimilate it or not. At least I´m able to get more acquainted to everyone´s outline of DQMW, and that´s the sense of this forum and a necessity for it´s survival!

Originally Posted by Gemma

When I see Sully in front of Abagail's grave, above all in Where the Heart Is, I think he is using her. He is using his memory of her to protect himself from his love for Michaela. He is afraid of it because in a way he doesn't know how to handle with it.

That´s a possible interpretation for me too, although it fits in another way into my own theories, I guess. Why should he be afraid of loving Michaela? My conclusion is: he was ashamed to "betray" his beloved woman beyond death.
But much more probable for me is, that visiting the grave is a proof of his long lasting grief and deep bond to Abigail beyond death.

Originally Posted by Gemma

I think within the years he is more affected by Hannah's death than Abagail's.

I agree and that is a natural consequence of having found a new love IMO.

Originally Posted by Gemma

As we see in The Heart Within or in When a child is born and with him preferring a girl over a boy.

I´m always wondering about people preferring the sex of an unborn child. This can provoke severe conflicts in the further development of the child, if the sex doesn´t "fit" at last.

Kruemi, that would be a too heavy load for me personally to recognize a responsibility for destroying or preserving your personal magic of the show and I am convinced, that this would be unbearable for you vice versa.
I regret your announcement of restraint deeply and just can try to reinforce your commitment to all those awesome discussions here again - with one cause and beyond personal feelings, which I had too, when I read your post: our forum would suffer dramatically, if we would begin to evolve an inner censorship before posting a heartfelt opinion.

[Amber]

Kruemi, I hope you know that, although my opinion differs a bit from yours regarding Abigail that I do respect your opinion...in no way to I want to crush your impression of Sully and Michaela's romance and what that means to you.

I really enjoy reading your thoughts in these discussions, and hope that you reconsider joining them in the future!

[Gemma]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slicker

I´m always wondering about people preferring the sex of an unborn child. This can provoke severe conflicts in the further development of the child, if the sex doesn´t "fit" at last.

Well, that was my case, but the only result is that he must wear long hair. Right now I am in conflict with his teacher who wants him to have a haircut. I can't understand what is her (his teacher's) problem with little Sullys.

Kruemi, I'm sure this is a temporary pre-Christmas crisis. Your comments are deeply appreciated.

[Quinnspirit]

..........Yes, please Kruemi......*squeaking*.....come back, come back, come back....(that scene from is following me everywhere...)....come back, come back....unfortunately, I don't have a whistle here...., so I am just gonna use me.... .... .......how Am I suppose to all alone here...(well, not really alone, but I guess you know what I mean......just kidding....)....I need you back here...(I promise, I will give you a happy ending... )......well, everyone needs you back here.....I love your comments...pleeeeaseeeee....... ..... .....

[Kruemi]

I don't want anybody to feel bad because of what I said above. Maybe I can explain my dilemma about this discussion a bit better today (I slept 8 hours in a row ).
I guess you all know the movie Pretty Woman. It has always been one of those I never get tired to watch. However, ones I found by accident a discussion that mentioned all the little mistakes in the film (there is a special expression for it, but I can't remember the word right now), e.g. when they sit on that meadow in one scene, that Richard Gere is wearing shoes but a second later, still the same angle, he only wears socks... There are obviously a lot of such things I never noticed because I was simply absorbed in the story, even when I watched the movie for the umpteenth time. However, now that I know I can't help but see all these things, and although I still love Pretty Woman, it is spoilt for me now. The same does this discussion to me.
I'm not sure if I could make myself clear... it is the reason why I decided to become a teacher for mathematics rather than for German: I didn't want to have to talk books I love into the ground... analyzing every word that was said... I'd love to keep the impression I had when I watched the show... the feelings it awoke inside of me. When I watched the show for the very first time and didn't know yet that there existed forums and fanfictions for it, I loved it for several reasons, and the main reason was the unique love Michaela found when she met Sully. I don't wanna discuss about this further because now, that the magic is lost anyway (for me), I'd like to just find the feeling I once had again.
I apologize for giving the impression that my problem is anybody's elses fault.

[Dr. Slicker]

Originally Posted by Gemma

Well, that was my case, but the only result is that he must wear long hair.

Sorry for stating this not in all, but some cases existing truth - as far as my life-experience goes. Overgeneralisation wasn´t intended.

Kruemi, thank you for the clarification. I never assumed, that your statement implied an intentional finger-pointing regarding the magic you´ve lost. But nevertheless I´m feeling guilty and this is a pure emotional, not a rational reaction. And I don´t like this reaction of mine at all. I think, we are sitting in the same boat somehow - you have to recover from the decrease (so to speak) of DQ-magic - as I understand your remarks - and I have to recover from my now uprising anguish to be very cautious about stating a heartfelt personal opinion about Michaela alone or about Michaela and Sully as a twosome.

I´m convinced, that every opinion about the show and it´s characters (Dorothy included ) is justified and should have a place in this forum. And for me it´s a pressure (again, for sure not intended on your side!), if I´m in a fluttering mood every now and then, if I´m just trying to point out my views on the show. My personal magic regarding the show - and I have stated my magic-feelings several times in other threads - isn´t necessarily the personal magic of others around here or maybe reflects a part of it. It´s an individual thing.

If I love to analyse microscopic parts of DQ - facial expressions, sentences, bodily movements or whatsoever - I can be ignored and the discussion falls asleep and that would be a natural ending. Or I can find agreements and claims to the contrary and then can rest assured, that my momentary interest of analyzing the little things within DQ is shared. If I feel like seeing the things more global - as intended within my last post regarding the love between Sully and Abigail - I´d like to do it either without any uprising anxiety to cause (not intentional, but factual) severe bad feelings within another member here.

Cause every opinion about the show mustn´t fit to one, to a few or all other possible opinions. And every opinion about DQMW should have a comfortable place around here.

I hope to see you back soon with all your valuable contrary and conformable viewpoints!

[Kruemi]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slicker

I have to recover from my now uprising anguish to be very cautious about stating a heartfelt personal opinion about Michaela alone or about Michaela and Sully as a twosome

I can't even tell you how sorry I am. My being upset was completely my fault, not yours or anyone else's. I shouldn't have been on this thread in the first place. It's like: when you know your body doesn't tolerate caffeine, you shouldn't drink (real) coffee. You see, Doc? You didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't hold back your heartfelt opinions !!!

[Little Wolf]

Originally Posted by Gemma

Ok, and now I'm going to be a bit cruel. When I see Sully in front of Abagail's grave, above all in Where the Heart Is, I think he is using her. He is using his memory of her to protect himself from his love for Michaela. He is afraid of it because in a way he doesn't know how to handle with it. It is going to be so different from the other relationship he lived and he knows it.

I always wondered if he was "talking" to Abagail...you know, asking her spirit for help in what he was feeling.

...am I the only one who has done something like this?

[Little Wolf]

OK, I've been mulling over the original question, and here is what I have come up with.

I believe that he did love both women, but he did love them differently. This is absolutely possible, and it does not take anything away from either relationship. His love for Abagail was true, and it was deep. He cared for her very much. Did they have the same spiritual connection that he and Michaela did? No, probably not, but that doesn't take anything away from how they felt about each other.

For arguments sake, if Abagail had lived and Michaela had come, what would have happened between Sully and she? Well, I believe that they would have had a very close friendship, possibly best friends, but Sully being the man that he is would never let it go beyond that. I still think they would have had a stong spiritual connection, but it would have stayed platonic. Luckily, though, that did not happen, and we got to see one of the most beautiful love stories of all time.